O'Reilly Factor: Interview Reps. Tom Tancredo and J.D. Hayworth

10/06/2003

Fox News: The O'Reilly Factor

O'REILLY: Thanks for staying with us. I'm Bill O'Reilly.

In the "Personal Story" Segment tonight, in a few weeks, the State of Arizona will vote on an initiative that would require people to show proof of residency before they could receive welfare and social services. In other words, those people in this country illegally would not get benefits. Polls show Arizonans overwhelmingly support the initiative, but Governor Janet Napolitano, a Democrat, and Republican Senators McCain and Kyl are opposed.

Joining us now from Phoenix is Republican Congressman J.D. Hayworth, who also opposes the measure, and, from Washington, Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo from Colorado who is in favor.

All right. Now I've got to say to the folks, Congressman Hayworth, you are a stand-up guy. There is no question about it. All of the others running. I mean they can't run faster away from this situation. So why don't you define your opposition to it?

REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: Here's the basic problem, Bill. I understand the frustration, but I've stood shoulder to shoulder with Tom Tancredo and other members of the House Immigration Reform Caucus in terms of the fact that border security and dealing with illegals is primarily a function of the federal government. This is well and good that people want to record their dissent.

By the way, the vote will be next November, not in a few short weeks. It will be in November of 2004...

O'REILLY: Thank you for correcting me. I didn't know that. Thank you.

HAYWORTH: ... through our initiative system here in Arizona. So I wanted to clarify that.

But the fact is, because the focus needs to be in Washington and, quite frankly, in Mexico City on a government-to-government basis -- and Tom Tancredo and I are on about 10 bills here -- that's one major reason.

And the other thing is the education and the health care things that come down are federal mandates beyond the reach of the Protect Arizona Now initiative.

The third thing: Courts would take a look and say, "Gee, this is the province of the federal government. It's unconstitutional."

And then just take a look at our neighbors to the west, California, Prop 187. The courts have eviscerated that, and nothing came out of it.

So I believe we need to concentrate our efforts at the federal level, though I certainly understand the opposition and the support and the frustration here.

O'REILLY: All right. Here's the problem. Here's the problem. You basically have your state, Arizona, which is almost bankrupt, all right? Terrible educational system overrun by illegal aliens. And this initiative, by the way, wouldn't stop that. I mean illegals will still be able to attend school.

HAYWORTH: See, that's -- and that's the fundamental problem.

O'REILLY: Right, right.

HAYWORTH: That's the problem.

O'REILLY: Well, wait. What I'm saying to you is that if every politician in the USA said that we cannot support undocumented aliens any more in any way, that would force the federal government to do something.

You're pie in the sky, Congressman, if you think the federal government's going to address this issue. It will not. It has not for 25 years, and, until there's a 9/11, it will not. That's -- my column today...

HAYWORTH: Well, that's...

O'REILLY: ... is about that.

HAYWORTH: There's already been a 9/11. That's why Tancredo and I and others are working to get it done. But I think the focus ought to be, quite frankly, on Arizonans saying to the congressional delegation make these changes, saying to the administration we need to have these changes made.

O'REILLY: We can say that all day long. They're not going to do it. Bush is not going to do it.

HAYWORTH: Well, I...

O'REILLY: Clinton didn't do it. Bush the elder didn't do it, and Reagan didn't do it. It's too explosive an issue.

How do you see it, Congressman Tancredo?

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: I absolutely agree with my friend and colleague that this is a federal issue and that the federal government is AWOL and has been for a long time.

But I'll tell you, J.D., God bless the people of Arizona who are going to -- who are trying to do something about this because this is the only thing they can do. It's called, you know, a redress of grievances.

It's petitioning your government because they feel in -- as do people in Colorado and California and all over the nation. They feel like their government has abandoned them, the federal government, and it has. And the best way to send that message to every politician everywhere is to say we're going to do this because you won't. It's exactly the reason.

I mean I totally agree with you that the federal government has taken a walk on this. They're petrified of it. It's true. But, by God, what else can people do, J.D., but put it on the -- if there was an initiative process at the federal level, if people in this country could gather together and put something on a national ballot, this would be on there, and it would pass overwhelmingly.

They can't do that. It's not provided by the Constitution. But many states -- 23 -- allow the people to do it their way in the state of -- in their states, and this is what they're doing...

HAYWORTH: Yes, but...

TANCREDO: ... and I say God bless them, man. Go for it.

O'REILLY: Congressman Hayworth...

TANCREDO: Go for it.

O'REILLY: Congressman Hayworth makes the point that even if it's passed a year from November, a judge is going to rule is unconstitutional, and that's what happened in California. He's going to say, you know, you...

TANCREDO: There's a...

O'REILLY: ... the people -- here's what the judge is going to say: People don't have the right to tell their politicians how to spend their tax money. That's -- you see that in San Francisco, and you know that's going to happen, Congressman.

TANCREDO: Yes, I do. But here -- but a couple of things, Bill. In this bill, in the proposal, as I've read it anyway, it -- there is a severability clause. It says if any part of this is found unconstitutional, the rest of it can still go.

The other thing is remember this in California. Although it was found unconstitutional by a district court, there was no attempt to bring it forward. Why? Because the governor of that state wouldn't do it. It wasn't because it -- this wouldn't have been upheld at a Supreme Court level.

HAYWORTH: But here's...

TANCREDO: It could very well have been.

O'REILLY: It might have been. It might have been.

HAYWORTH: And here's the problem here. Here's the problem here. Let me give you the lay of the land in Arizona. Governor Napolitano a while back vetoed a bill that was a very simple requirement to have picture identification verification when you go to vote, and then just a couple of weeks ago, she said she wanted to give driver's licenses to illegal aliens.

O'REILLY: But you know what that's all about.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: ... take a powder like Gray Davis.

O'REILLY: But you know what...

HAYWORTH: So we need to...

O'REILLY: Wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: ... the governor's job.

O'REILLY: Whoa, whoa. Hold it, hold it. But both of you know what this is all about. Governor Napolitano wants votes from undocumented aliens.

TANCREDO: That's right.

O'REILLY: So does Governor Gray Davis. The Democratic Party feels that they will get 70 percent, 80 percent of that vote. So they're going to make it as easy as they can for undocumenteds to vote. They're going to give them driver's licenses because then they can, you know, just click off the thing I'm an American citizen, nobody will check them out.

Look, the problem with this, Congressman Hayworth, is that it's a big game and a charade, and the American people -- Arizonans and everybody else -- will be put in jeopardy because people come across that border every single day. No one's going to stop them. The poor Border Patrol is outgunned and outmanned.

And that -- the folks are trying to say to the state you cannot aid and abet this. Yet you're in opposition to it.

TANCREDO: There are...

HAYWORTH: Well, look, the voters -- I'm all for the voters sending a message, but we have to get credible policy, and, at the end of the day, we still have this fundamental problem. Will we embrace this at the federal level and get serious about it...

O'REILLY: No!

HAYWORTH: ... after...

O'REILLY: You won't.

HAYWORTH: Well, I'm not going to be so cynical about this, Bill.

O'REILLY: Oh, come on!

HAYWORTH: I'm going to continue to work with Tancredo and get...

O'REILLY: How much evidence do you need?

HAYWORTH: ... it done.

O'REILLY: We're in the war on terror, they still won't do it. How much evidence do you need?

HAYWORTH: Well, we better -- look, I voted to put military on the border. I believe we can do technological enhancements for force multipliers...

O'REILLY: Sure you could. Tomorrow you could put the guard on the border.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: ... and the federal government has to do it.

O'REILLY: But they will not do it.

HAYWORTH: Sure, but the way we do it -- the voice of the people have to be heard not -- has to be heard not only in Arizona, but across the country because Phoenix making immigration policy or Sacramento making immigration policy or Austin, Texas, making immigration policy is...

O'REILLY: All right. It sounds good, Congressman. There's not one presidential candidate on either party running that will do anything about the border. Not one.

Congressman Tancredo, I'm giving you the last word.

TANCREDO: States and cities all over this nation have been making immigration policy, but they've been making it the opposite way. They've been saying that they are going to help people in this country violate the law by saying that they can't communicate -- you know, their city -- I mean their police can't communicate with the INS.

O'REILLY: All right.

TANCREDO: The people in Arizona are saying just the opposite, that we want to help the federal government enforce the law.

J.D., let's help them, man.

O'REILLY: All right. Well...

HAYWORTH: I was with you on that legislation, Tom.

O'REILLY: Once again, we've got to run. We've got to run. We've got to run. But Congressman Hayworth's a stand-up guy. All the other guys...

TANCREDO: I agree with that. I agree with that.

O'REILLY: All the other guys are hiding.

OK. Thanks, gentlemen. We appreciate it.