Interview with Eugene Davis

Fox News: The O'Reilly Factor

October 28, 2002

O'REILLY: The impact segment tonight, one of the worst-kept secrets in America is the tension between the INS and Border Patrol agents. In a nutshell, many agents feel the INS simply will not enforce the law because of political reasons.

In Washington State the Border Patrol, as we said, handed over John Lee Malvo to the INS believing he would be deported. Obviously he was not. In fact, he was released unsupervised.

Joining us now from Seattle is Eugene Davis, former deputy chief Border Patrol agent in Blaine, Washington.

You just heard the debate between the professor and myself. What say you?

EUGENE DAVIS, FORMER WASHINGTON STATE BORDER PATROL: Yes, I did hear the debate. And there's a couple things I think it's important to understand on this case.

The agent that arrested Malvo and his interrogation was absolutely certain that he and his mother and their -- stowaways, or he would not have put that on the reports. The procedure is, is once the individual is apprehended in Border Patrol custody, then he goes to INS.

I think that something that's really interesting about this, it was the following day, Bill, that the -- the following day that the Border Patrol agent got the call asking him to change the charges. He refused to do it. They called. They talked to his next-line supervisor, he refused to do it.

They held Malvo and his mother in custody, it was -- I think it was almost three weeks before they were -- before they were released. And something happened during those three weeks. What it is, I don't know. Either they changed their stories, either they were coached by someone that came in and talked to them.

But I am absolutely certain that at the time that the Border Patrol sent them down there, they were convinced that they were stowaways or they would not have handed over the paperwork.

O'REILLY: And they were. And they were. The truth is, they were stowaways. And no Border Patrol agent changed the designation. Do you know who changed it inside the INS?

DAVIS: No, I have no idea. But there's -- like I say, and eventually, hopefully, you know, the truth will come out, but somewhere it did change. But...

O'REILLY: That's right. Somebody changed it. And now the INS Will not say who. Ziglar, as I said, is hiding under his desk. And I understand the guys out in Washington state are furious about this. Is that true?

DAVIS: Well, they were -- Bill, they're not only furious now, they were furious -- the agents who were involved in this at the time that this happened that they were told to change it.

But you know, there's a more basic thing on this, even, Bill. If you go back two or three years ago, this scenario, here you have a woman in Bellingham, she has all of her possessions with her, her pots, her pans, everything, she's living in a homeless shelter. You have her son who's living in a homeless shelter with Muhammad at the Lighthouse Mission.

Here's two people, they have no ties to this country, they have no relatives in this country. They have no possessions in this country except the things they're carrying. Several years ago, this would have been a non-brainer. These people would have been taken into custody. With no ties, they would have been removed.

But now what happens is they go down, they -- it's gone from catch and release on the border to catch, send to INS, and have them release them.

And this, I think, is what's frustrating.

O'REILLY: Do you know the why behind it? I mean, look, we know the Border Patrol is doing a hell of a job, the best job anybody could possibly do. But the INS is so disorganized and politicized, do you know why they want 8 million illegal aliens running around this country, why the INS wants that to happen?

DAVIS: Well, you know, first of all, I'm not even sure it's 8 million, because two weeks ago in a hearing that the Ways and Means Committee had, joint INS and Social Security, I think the deputy commissioner of Social Security said he thought there was, like, 10 million in this country using a Social Security card that don't belong to them. So it may even be higher.

But the -- but, but there's one thing you have to understand. There, to say that all of these people working at INS in these offices are a bunch of sinister people sitting around...

O'REILLY: No, that's not it, it's the leadership.

DAVIS: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE), that's, that's, that's, no, it's the -- it boils down to two things, it's the leadership, and you're absolutely correct, when you put political appointees in, that bring in, know nothing, that, you're, that's a disaster for, for, for, for failure.

Another problem you have, Bill, is that immigration -- and I think this is the biggest problem -- immigration becomes the scapegoat for a Congress and for an administration that sits back, and they will not address this problem, and it becomes real, real convenient to try to throw everything onto INS.

And I'm telling you, every INS district office, they have good employees, but they are absolutely swimming in a sea of illegal immigration.

O'REILLY: And the Congress and president won't address it because they want votes?

DAVIS: And -- that's, they...

O'REILLY: Is that what it is, votes?

DAVIS: I, I, I, well, the only thing that I hear from both sides -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the only thing dealing with all of this problem is one word, amnesty. And that is not the solution. They tried that in '86. If they're going to talk about this, this has to be after they do something to solve the problem, and...

O'REILLY: Well, there's something very, very wrong, and it was wrong under the Clinton administration, and it's wrong under the Bush administration. We can't point fingers. It looks like it's vote buying or political correctness. But we're going to find out.

Mr. Davis, keep us posted. Thanks for your honesty. We appreciate it. I think everybody gets the picture of why John Lee Malvo was allowed to run around this country killing Americans.

In a moment, as THE FACTOR continues, we'll take you inside the Nation of Islam, an anti-American group that sniper John Muhammad belonged to. That's up next.