Rep. Tancredo, Michelle Malkin, Jeanne Butterfield, Michael Wildes, Andrew P. Napolitano

Fox News: The Big Story With John Gibson

October 29, 2002

GIBSON: THE BIG STORY at this hour, there you see them, a boat, 50- foot boat heavily overloaded with Haitians, illegal immigrants, coming to America. Got all the way to the beach in Florida, diving off the boat, wading ashore.

Pretty much all rounded up on the causeway, the Rickenbacker Causeway, according to Jane Skinner, and are now in Miami-Dade corrections buses headed for the Krome (ph) Detention Center, where they will be interviewed about their case, which they'll undoubtedly make, claiming political asylum.

Joining us on the phone now, Jeanne, Jeanne Butterfield, executive director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association.

So Jeanne, what does this picture illustrate for you?

JEANNE BUTTERFIELD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAWYERS ASSOCIATION (on phone): Well, I think that, you know, it makes my heart break, John. We have an incredible tradition and value as a country, as a nation of immigrants and as a nation of laws, and our very country was founded on the principle that we have a value of providing protection to people who are fleeing for their lives, fleeing persecution.

GIBSON: Now why would you...

BUTTERFIELD: And I think that...

GIBSON: ... why would you think these people are fleeing persecution?

BUTTERFIELD: Because we've had a situation in Haiti of incredible repression. And when people have made it to our shores and have had their opportunity to state their case, many, many of them have made a very strong case that if they were to be sent back home, they would be in danger of their lives. And I think it's that...

GIBSON: All right.

BUTTERFIELD: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

GIBSON: Jeanne, let me just, let me just point out to people, that is a live shot of the INS or Miami-Dade corrections buses that are being used to take these people away for the hearing in which they will make the claim that Jeanne is talking about. But Jeanne, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BUTTERFIELD: And I -- well, my point is that, you know, people who are so desperate that they are fleeing and washing up on our shores, under our laws are provided with an opportunity to be heard. Simply to be heard. Simply to have their day in court. And if they make their case, we have, under our laws, a value of providing them protection. If they don't make their case, our laws are to be respected and enforced, and they will be sent back to their home country. So I...

GIBSON: But Jeanne, you know, I think what Congressman Tancredo is talking about is if we don't take a very tough line on this, if we don't say, You have to really demonstrate some persecution, otherwise, if you're just coming for economic reasons, these boats will come every day.

BUTTERFIELD: Sure. Absolutely. And our practice has been very much to enforce that very law and that very principle. Haitians who came back in December, 188 of them, were in fact detained even when they had made a credible fear of persecution, and our government officials had said, Yes, you have a credible fear.

Still they were detained, unlike Cubans, unlike others who come here. And they were allowed their day in court, and many of them were found to have a valid claim. Many of them were found not to. I think our system is working in that way, and we need to, you know, understand that the only way we're going to know who is making a valid claim of persecution is to hear them out. Let them have their day in court.

GIBSON: Congressman Tancredo, do you quarrel much with that, that we shouldn't -- that we shouldn't have kind of an open heart about the idea that people are being persecuted in some places? I mean, you and I don't want to live in Haiti. Why should we expect Haitians to live in Haiti?

TANCREDO: Well, I certainly agree that they can have their day in court. That is the law of the land, I -- But, you know, the interesting statement that was made there is we are a nation of laws, and you are seeing those laws being essentially broken even today. They are coming here illegally, these people. They are not coming through the process we have established.

And the United States, it, you know, being a nation of laws...

BUTTERFIELD: We don't have any...

TANCREDO: ... doesn't mean, doesn't mean that you can come here without our permission.

BUTTERFIELD: No, exactly...

TANCREDO: That is really important, that is an important distinction.

BUTTERFIELD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

TANCREDO: Jeanne, now wait a minute...

BUTTERFIELD: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

TANCREDO: ... just a minute. The other thing is this. That right now, you are seeing a great number of these folks, the folks that are on this particular boat, evidently a substantial number of them are being incarcerated, taken in and put in detention.

But you know exactly what we -- that this is an anomaly, that what you're watching here is amazing, in a way, because most of the people who come are not interdicted at this point. They are simply landing on our shores and walking into our society...

BUTTERFIELD: I think that the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

TANCREDO: ... and nobody is doing...

BUTTERFIELD: ... that's a gross...

TANCREDO: ... a thing about it.

BUTTERFIELD: You know, that's a gross exaggeration.

TANCREDO: Oh, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), are you really trying to suggest...

BUTTERFIELD: And we're talking about...

TANCREDO: ... that this is...

BUTTERFIELD: ... we're talking about...

TANCREDO: ... are you, Jeanne, are you trying to suggest...

BUTTERFIELD: ... Haitians...

GIBSON: All right, hold on, hold on.

BUTTERFIELD: ... who are fleeing...

TANCREDO: ... are you trying to...

BUTTERFIELD: ... persecution.

GIBSON: Hold on, congressman...

TANCREDO: ... are you trying to suggest that this is...

BUTTERFIELD: May I make my point?

GIBSON: ... congressman, hold on. Jeanne, hold on.

BUTTERFIELD: We're...

TANCREDO: All right.

GIBSON: Jeanne...

BUTTERFIELD: We're watching...

GIBSON: ... Jeanne, Jeanne, hang on. Let me ask you a question. The congressman is making the case, and I think most Americans would agree, that they believe it's true that most people who come to this country without prior permission, get in, and disappear into this society. Otherwise, we wouldn't have 9 million illegal aliens in this country.

It -- what do you mean it's not true?

BUTTERFIELD: I'm talking about the specific situation that we're looking at here. And again, I think, you know, we're seeing...

GIBSON: But the congressman is talking about a generalization...

TANCREDO: I'm talking about...

(CROSSTALK)

BUTTERFIELD: Let me address, let me address the specific first and then the general. We've got a group of people who have fled their home country who have taken great risk and traveled under incredibly dangerous conditions to make their way here. And I think our law provides for them to have an opportunity to state their case. And we're simply giving them that. We're detaining them...

GIBSON: OK, now about the general.

BUTTERFIELD: ... we're giving them that opportunity.

GIBSON: All right, you've made your...

(CROSSTALK)

BUTTERFIELD: And I, and our, our laws, our laws must be enforced. Part of our law...

TANCREDO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BUTTERFIELD: ... is that you can't come illegally. And when we enforce those laws, and we should and we must, and I fully support that, you know, we interdict, we detect, we arrest, we detain...

GIBSON: OK. Jeanne Butterfield, hang on.

BUTTERFIELD: ... and we deport. And we need...

GIBSON: Judge, before we have to go to a break...

BUTTERFIELD: ... we need rational...

GIBSON: ... before I have to go to a break...

BUTTERFIELD: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

GIBSON: ... hang on, Jeanne, before I go to a break, what Jeanne Butterfield is saying is, the laws that is Congressman Tancredo is referring to, that is, the various ways one gets permission to come to this country, so you're not jumping on a pickup that happens to be going by on the causeway, also include those laws that create permission by your illegal immigration.

NAPOLITANO: That's right.

GIBSON: That is, if you get your dry foot on the ground, we'll give you a hearing.

NAPOLITANO: That's right. It's a catch-22. The Congress limits the number that can come in, but also says if you can sneak in here illegally and prove repression in your home country, we'll, we'll...

GIBSON: Michael Wildes...

NAPOLITANO: ... consider letting you stay.

GIBSON: ... what are the chances they'll be able to prove repression?

WILDES: They're going to have a day in court. They should use it wisely. They should get competent counsel. And the fact is, this is a problem that we are treating in a humane way, but it needs to be interdicted before it comes our way. And that is what the leadership of our Congress and our president is, needs to do in the coming days.

GIBSON: Tom Tancredo wants to see this stopped. Never happen again. Is that possible?

WILDES: I don't think you're going to stop it as long as the Statue of Liberty lives a few blocks from this studio and people, again, remind ourselves of why our country was established. But I do think that it is very important that Congress vet this through. Whether it's terrorists, immigrants, or others, our borders can no longer be porous.

GIBSON: We got to go to a break. It is patently obvious our borders are porous. They're coming in when they want, and then we deal with them by the law. Is the law adequate to deal with this problem? THE BIG STORY will be right back.

GIBSON: There is the picture of the Haitians jumping off the boat just a little while ago.

We're continuing coverage of our porous American borders. This in Florida just about 3:00 Eastern time.

Michelle Malkin, whose book "Invasion" is on this point. Michelle, you know, it's kind of hard to, I think, make the leap, as you were from the, from the rail of the boat, which is illegal immigration, to the water of terrorism, if I can make this crummy analogy. What we're looking at here is not terrorism. Is it?

MALKIN: No, I'm not saying that. But you want to talk about a case that makes the connection between tolerating massive illegal immigration and grossly endangering our society and making it susceptible to terrorist acts on our soil, what have we been covering for the past couple of weeks, the Lee Malvo and John Muhammad case?

And let's take a look at John Muhammad, who is suspected of engaging in precisely the kind of activity we're seeing here, which is alien smuggling, and at least in that case, there was an alert immigration inspector at Miami International Airport who did his job and enforced the law, which provided for immediate exclusion and removal of two Jamaican women that came here with no means of support, no identification, clearly coming here to be illegal aliens, and they were turned away.

And that's what ought to be happening in this case. Let's take a look at Lee Malvo, who came on a boat just like these people did with his mother, landed somewhere offshore in Miami, and they were able to get through. And now, of course, we discovered late last week that they were in Border Patrol custody and yet were released somehow because of an INS decision for humanitarian reasons to let them loose.

We saw what happened there as well. And, of course, this detention and deportation system has been totally monopolized...

GIBSON: Congressman.

MALKIN: ... by obstructionist immigration lawyers like Jeanne...

GIBSON: Congressman.

MALKIN: ... Butterfield represents.

GIBSON: Congressman Tancredo, let me just. So while INS deals with this problem today, they're not dealing with a possible terrorist coming through somewhere else. And would you go along with programs that were, for want of a better word, outreach to make sure that this 200 Haitians didn't feel a need to come to America?

TANCREDO: Well, John, if I could figure out exactly how to make the world a place in which everyone were happy to live in the country in which they reside, I'd certainly do it. But I'll tell you, I do not know. What, in its, in terms of priority, John, the first thing I would do is make our borders secure, and then I'd worry about trying to make the rest of the world a happy place.

But yet, because, I'll tell you, this is what -- what you're seeing here and what we're talking about in terms of, well, they're not terrorists, these are just people looking, you see what happens, John, when you selectively apply the law, when you selectively enforce the law?

We just can't do that. You can't say these folks appear to be people who are just coming in for all the reasons that everybody else is coming into the United States, so we should essentially ignore it.

We should do everything we can to stop illegal immigration into this country because it is in our nation's interest to do so. Because you can't selectively apply the law to some people you think are OK and some who might be the bad guys.

GIBSON: But Judge Napolitano...

TANCREDO: You can't do it, John.

GIBSON: ... isn't that your job is sit there and selectively apply the job, figure out who's good and who's bad?

NAPOLITANO: Well, that's right. And, you know, I agree with the essence of what Congressman Tancredo is trying to say. The problem with this is not the law, it is the Constitution, because the Constitution protects persons, human beings.

It doesn't limit its protections to citizens, which is why once these persons are on our land, they get a certain minimum level of protection that entitles them to a hearing that lets them prove repression. And if they prove it, they stay.

GIBSON: Michael Wildes...

MALKIN: Actually the problem is...

GIBSON: ... take prediction. Hang on...

MALKIN: ... the laws...

GIBSON: Hang on, everybody, hang on, everybody. Michael Wildes (UNINTELLIGIBLE) before I run out of time. Are these people staying or going home?

WILDES: They're staying, they're going to get a day in court, and then they'll be packed up and returned home summarily if they aren't entitled to remain here. I wish we could take the vigilance of the congressman and the heart of Miss Butterfield and put together a good law...

GIBSON: Michael Wildes, thanks. Judge...

WILDES: ... and there are ways to do it.

GIBSON: ... Napolitano, thanks. Michelle Malkin, thanks. Congressman Tom Tancredo, thanks. Jeanne Butterfield, thanks.

We will be back in just a moment. THE BIG STORY continues, our open and porous and very leaky border, right after this.