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April 26, 2006
H-1B Workers Take American Jobs, Use Money to Lobby for More Visas "Temporary" workers have set up their own lobbying operation to increase the number of laid-off Americans. "Most members and all the core organizers Comments
It just doesn't get any better than this! I am forwarding this story to Congress as well and asking them if the future of this country is really sold off this cheaply! Posted by: takn on April 26, 2006 06:33 PM You can try, Takn, but I've already used the internet to e-mail the pro-amnesty Congressman and get the same tired response back about how our economy needs them and they have children who were born here and on and on with pro-amnesty crap! Posted by: Born American on April 26, 2006 06:57 PM Shut up! H1-B is a dual-intent visa by law. Go check it. This very "Ignorance is bliss" mentality has brought you guys here! We are the people that are going through the legal system giving due respect to all the laws. If you have to, stop those ppl that have entered US illegally and now demanding citizenship. Dont waste your time trying to stop us. Not worth it !! Posted by: lega_immig on April 26, 2006 08:26 PM Sharing below my letter on H-1B Visas published this week in EDUCATION WEEK: Published: April 26, 2006 To the Editor: Regarding the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee’s proposal to dramatically raise the cap on H1B visas, which are given to skilled foreign workers ("Immigration Proposals Could Aid School Hiring Efforts," April 12, 2006): Increasing the H1B cap is a double-edged sword. It would make it easier for school districts to fill chronic shortages of science and math teachers, and for U.S. technology companies to get more foreign scientific and engineering talent. But there would be unintended consequences: • It would take the pressure off the drastic need to reform our state education systems—where differential pay for scarce science or math teaching talent, for example, is opposed by the teachers’ unions. • It would also send a terrible message to prospective science and technology students here: Work hard, earn your degree in a very challenging field, and your government will suppress your salary and/or give your job to a foreigner. So we have a choice: We can become addicted to foreign high-tech and science talent by expanding the number of H1B visas granted. Or we can subject a dysfunctional education monopoly to reform. My preference: a bracing dose of market competition in the form of school vouchers, selective science and math charter schools, and the like. Which course would better serve the long-term interests of the United States? Tom Shuford Posted by: Tom Shuford on April 26, 2006 09:14 PM So what is your point. What is wrong if they are lobbying for something that is good for them and this country. Remember these are the legal people who have come to this country legal. These are the law abiding people. Many of them have US education. Don't forget that you are getting skilled people for free. We did not have to invest any money in them. Problem is not the H-1. Problem is we the US citizens. We failed to put our children in the right place. If we would have spend time in our childrens education, today we would have not been dependent on India and China. When would we come forward and face reality. Posted by: Peter on April 26, 2006 09:27 PM I thought H1-B was supposed to be for 'TEMPORARY' workers? WHAT PART OF 'TEMPORARY' IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? Is America gonna simply write off its own youth now and just import FOREIGNERS in H1-Bs to do technical jobs? I am an engineer. Fortunately for me, my job is military related and this H1-B proof, but many of my friends are not so lucky. What H1-B is doing is driving Americans AWAY from science and technical fields as everyone see the writing on the wall...the tech firms prefer docile foreigners. The tech firms like to threaten to send these jobs away to India and China if we don't agree to ever more H1-Bs....but why is that a bad thing? What is wrong with creating conditions that ATTRACT instead of REPEL Americans to these technical fields? Don't get me wrong, I fully support bringing the 'best and brightest' minds to America...I just don't think that FULL SCALE REPLACEMENT of Americans in science and technology benefits America. The issue is BALANCE. As such, I think about 20,000 H1-B visa annually is about right. Posted by: American_Techie on April 26, 2006 09:32 PM This is part of the war on the middle class that gets the least attention. American citizens have been thrown out of jobs in droves by companies who simply replace their workers with foreigners. It is perfectly legal, although the government will tell you that the companies have to (check a box) on a form that says they cannot find American citizens to do the work. The entire push, whether it is this legal immigration or anmesty for illegals, is an overall plan to dilute the American culture and our influence on how we are governed. When a government treats its people in this manner, to hurt them and reward foreigners (because of payments by the rich), we no longer have a government for the people. Our government protects the rights of foreigners and is doing everything in its power to degrade the ability of the middle class to exist. Anyone can see there is a war going on on the middle class and these "legal non-immigrant workers" are just a part of the overall plan to "de-Americanize" the United States. We need to go aggressively against legal immigration as well as illegal immigration. It is a backdoor and it we don't try to close it, congress will simply legalize all foreigners and the result will be the same. I think we need to stop being so welcoming to all of these foreigners. We even see movements to make laws to stop us from even complaining about foreigners (considered hate crimes even to object). Or we are nailed with we aren't "politically correct". Any ideas on how to fix this? Posted by: pdc on April 26, 2006 10:03 PM I personally know US citizens who have moved to Philippines in past year to help recruit 100s of nurses a day to come work in USA. It is spreading like a virus. It is infecting our own citizens who are jumping ship for opportunity to make a quick buck. My one friend owned 3 restaurants in Gainsville, FL and is selling them to go recruit nurses from the Philippines. The wholesale sellout of USA is in fully gear now. Go your eyes, stick your thumb in your butt, and get used to it. There is nothing you can do! I challenge you to stop it! Posted by: Shelby Moore on April 26, 2006 10:16 PM It's exactly abuses like this that they need to pass an anti-lobby bill. This is on the verge of the insanity. I can't believe the government sells Americans out so damn cheaply. We need to start protecting American jobs for Americans. Brian Posted by: Brian on April 26, 2006 11:12 PM The tech firms want to bring in H1-b workers not because they are better educated but they will work for less. How is this good for America? And how many come here and over stay their Visa? And who is checking up on that? Posted by: Pye on April 27, 2006 01:21 AM Oh, I get it... 1. We don't secure the borders and pass an amnesty for all the illegals. 2. We increase the H1B and other visas to outsource American jobs. Then, in the future, we have the ELITE class, the imported class, and finally the mexicans/american class.... no jobs for americans, you will compete with illegals or amnesty illegals made legal, their families, etc... driving wages down and taxes up, benefits down. Elite class with the SENATE, CONGRESS, BIG BUSINESS Moguls working to erase borders in the world to do what? THE NEW WORLD ORDER, eh? Posted by: Greg on April 27, 2006 04:03 AM lega_immig; First of all, an H1-B is a NON IIMMIGRANT VISA., When you signed up for the H1-B, you signed up for to become a 'temporary' worker , thus you are NOT an immigrant as you claim. You are a 'TEMPORARY' worker who is upset that your term has expired and are now supposed to GO HOME! Why SHOULDN'T we try and stop you? Its OUR country, not YOURS! Its OUR jobs that you H1-B leeches seek to steal! Aside from that is the fact you Indians will simply endlessly demand ever more and more H1-Bs for your 1 BILLION impoverished countrymen. Not to mention that Indias population is projected by the US census to overtake China by midcentury, expanding 50%, from the current 1 BILLION, with a B, to 1.5 BILLION, with a B. http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbsum.pl?cty=IN I mean, India is now DEMANDING the USA grant it 195,000 H1-B visa annually! I suppose India now dictates USA immigration policy? http://news.com.com/2061-10788_3-5760910.html?part=rss&tag=5760910&subj=news I suppose next you Indians will start crying RACISM when your efforts for an endless stream of your countrymen on H1-Bs is rebuffed? If so, why is it NOT racist for you Indians to simply seek to REPLACE Americans and destroy their livlihoods? You Indians are racists because you don't care what the effects are on non Indians! Funny how the 'shortage' of troops to go to Iraq doesn't lead to H1-B visa program. I suppose the purpose of Americans troops is to preserve a place for India, China and Mexico to dump their MILLIONS? No, BILLIONS in the case of India and China! Peter; Its quite clear you too are an Indian H1-B. I know from experience that you Indians love to use American sounding names to conceal your identity. What is wrong is that these ppl signed up as TEMPORARY workers and are now DEMANDING to stay. You ASSUME its good for the country. It might be good for you INDIANS...why is it good for OUR country? What is good about WHOLESALE replacement of white collar American jobs by FOREIGNERS imported on H1-Bs? Are the repulsive effects on American youth pursuing techincal educations good for the country? If we can spend 300 BILLION...so far... in Iraq, why can't we spend a fraction of that on SCHOLARSHIPS for American kids to pursue techical professions? Oh, thats right, thats not in INDIAN interests, right? Yeah Peter, these are legal ppl. They signed up to come as TEMPORARY WORKERS for 6 years and then GO HOME....the 6 years are up! GO HOME! The US education you cite is resources wasted on FOREIGNERS that should have gone to AMERICANS! We are NOT getting skilled ppl for free! The Americans being REPLACED by you docile, cheaper, FOREIGNERS, pay the price. Lost careers, broken familes, with accompanying rises in social pathologies, etc, is the PRICE for these 'skilled ppl. The problem IS H1-B. Because of the outright REPLACEMENT of American workers in technical fields, few Americans are willing to invest the time, money and energy pursuing studies in these technical fields. If we got rid of you H1-Bs, salaries and employment of AMERICANS would rise...making them more attractive to American youth entering post secondary studies. To expand H1-B is to deepen dependence on India and China, something you CLEARLY desire. In fact, H1-B increases outsourcing to your home countries..something I am sure you desire. How exactly is America ever supposed to compete with India and China by simply becoming India and China? How do Americans benefit if we are simply displaced in our own country by India and China BILLIONS? The REALITY is that we don't need H1-Bs, never did as University of California Professor and computer science pioneer , Norm Matloff makes clear; http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Summary.pdf Its worth noting that Professor Matloff is married to a Chinese immigrant woman btw. I am SURE he a just a rabid racist though. Come forward and face the reality that Americans went to the moon without you Indians! The H1-B visa was designed as a 'guest worker' program. The visa holder was supposed to come to America and take a tech job for which , ostensibly, there was no American to do. It has metamorphised into a CHEAP LABOR program. It also highlights the problems inherent in 'guest worker' programs that bring 3rd worlders to 1st world nations...they NEVER want to GO HOME! JUST LOOK AT THE CURRENT CROP OF 'GUEST WORKERS', THE H1-Bs. Posted by: American_Techie on April 27, 2006 07:51 AM Tom Shuford, that's a great letter. As a tech/quant worker, I had the opportunity to work with Indian and Chinese nationals on projects. This H1-B scandal did not come about because foreign workers are better. In fact, I used to correct H1-B visa holders' numerous mathematical and conceptual mistakes in QA, and furthermore, I used to outscore Chinese and Indian students in school. Yet Indian and Chinese employees used to make all kinds of cutting remarks about Americans and our work skills, e.g., we're all fat, lazy, stupid, smell, drool...I've heard it all because I also speak Mandarin. And speaking of language, the language barrier slows down the work flow and leads to all kinds of mistakes. In the IT world, there's often ethnic division of labor, so for example an individual company will have teams of Chinese, Indian and Russian programmers, and each team seeks ways to hire its own via more chain migration. Immigration Voices and Rick Swartz aren't bringing in French or German engineers, are they? These are ethnic power interest groups bent on bringing more of their own. Right now, I have a Bombay-born friend who graduated from a lower-ranked graduate school and lacks both my financial skills (his background was in IT) and experience, and he is now having an easy time landing jobs in the New York financial world, whereas many American workers (including myself) are having a brutal time even finding consulting work. This is no accident, and besides the political angle I've already mentioned, there also is the ugly issue of Title VII discrimination. Bill Gates has already stated that if we want the best talent we need to look abroad, but if this were so patently true, how did those "stupid" Americans invent the computer at the University of Pennsylvania, for example? Actually, as an undergraduate exchange student, I took a finance class in Hong Kong. The teacher was Indian. The students at this university scored in the top 1% of their A-level exams and were very competitive academically. This was Hong Kong, after all. How did I, the only Anglo-American, score on the final vs the other students? 1st out of 60. The reason was that they tried to memorize the entire textbook and all their notes, while I focused on the concepts (and also studied hard). Asian education systems do not emphasize creativity and individual thought, which are engines of economic growth and productivity increases. So, the United States is throwing its best into the proverbial river, but since the country is also roped to these best-and-brightest through citizenship, the country is going in the river, as well. Posted by: FCannon on April 27, 2006 09:40 AM Well, well. lega_immig and Peter, thanks for checking in. Your points are taken. I have some questions, though. How many H1-B visas do YOU think the U.S. should issue? The premise, as explained by Bill Gates, is that 'we need this talent to be competitive'. Well, okay, but what is the future of American citizens if the whole world's top students are just going to get the good jobs? Would you still feel the same way if YOU got laid off and 'your' job was given to a foreign national by your own government? Please be honest. Thanks for any reply. Posted by: Bill Dexter on April 27, 2006 09:47 AM Remember, the guy they arrested for passing on stealth aircraft technology came from Pakistan; he was one of those foreigners who came here "to do the technical work Americans can't do." He sold the information to several countries. The Truth(tm) is that American industry has sold the American Citizen down the river and imported hundreds of thousands of potential and actual Fifth columinsts. "Globalism" is a canard used by American business to enable the American populace to accept their decline without rioting in the streets. The H-1B Visa is the tip of the spear to destroy scientific and engineering base of the nation. Posted by: George Elkerton on April 27, 2006 10:55 AM To lega_immig: In case you haven't noticed we are here concerning illegal immigration. Posted by: Born American on April 27, 2006 11:04 AM If increasing H1B visas is to provide skilled workers for scarce positions in the U.S., then why does the labor dept. not release these postions so U.S. citizens can freely apply? Recently there were 30,000 positions in the H1B pipeline. In one month there were 70,000 IT/hi-tech people in the U.S. umemployed according to the Dept. of Labor web site. Why not release that list? Could it be the companies applying are more interested in low salaries and lie on the applications? However, you can't blame the companies for playing by the rules the District of Corruption has laid out. And if you think your position is H1B proof read this article: http://www.itpaa.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2188 Check out competeAmerica: http://www.competeamerica.us/ Programmers Guild: http://www.programmersguild.org/ ITPAA: http://www.itpaa.org Posted by: Rick Forman on April 27, 2006 11:12 AM If increasing H1B visas is to provide skilled workers for scarce positions in the U.S., then why does the labor dept. not release these postions so U.S. citizens can freely apply? Recently there were 30,000 positions in the H1B pipeline. In one month there were 70,000 IT/hi-tech people in the U.S. umemployed according to the Dept. of Labor web site. Why not release that list? Could it be the companies applying are more interested in low salaries and lie on the applications? However, you can't blame the companies for playing by the rules the District of Corruption has laid out. And if you think your position is H1B proof read this article: http://www.itpaa.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2188 Check out competeAmerica: http://www.competeamerica.us/ Programmers Guild: http://www.programmersguild.org/ ITPAA: http://www.itpaa.org Posted by: Rick Forman on April 27, 2006 11:23 AM "The Truth(tm) is that American industry has sold the American Citizen down the river and imported hundreds of thousands of potential and actual Fifth columinsts. The H-1B Visa is the tip of the spear to destroy scientific and engineering base of the nation." George Elkerton, it's indeed a national security issue. As you know, the FBI has been investigating Chinese tech worker thefts, but much more is needed. Is Rick Swartz the target of any investigation? Are there any ties to foreign governments? What are his associations? If the Federal government were not behaving so much like an occupying power, they would unleash the CIA and FBI on the Fifth Column infiltration you mentioned, including the neo-Marxist operatives (e.g., Workers World Party) who organized the illegal alien demonstrations. There also would be full investigations into those Senators who are undermining the American Republic. The CIA has been gutted and neutralized by this globalist adminstration, but during an Ike or FDR administration, the intelligence services would be aggressively going after the Fifth Column elements. Posted by: FCannon on April 27, 2006 11:34 AM H-1B; the dog biting the hand. Lets put the dog to sleep. Posted by: Some Mexican on April 27, 2006 11:50 AM There are over 572,000 foreign students in the US who pay their own way through school out of pocket through school (money that is earned outside this country) and not as falsely alleged by someone on this forum through American resources. A 4 year course of study costs anywhere from $40k to $100k, majority of international students often pay out of state tuition which translates to higher tuition costs which can be double or triple what an American would pay for tuition, this does not include living expenses and money injected to the American economy making one's education in this country a $100k+ expense, money that benefits this country. International students are not eligible for federal student loans or grants as some mistakenly allege. That said, often these students graduate, some take up jobs in the US on H1-B in high skilled fields. Others return home. Has anyone bothered to reflect on the phrase "American Competitiveness in the 21st Century ?" Why is this such a hot button issue ? The fact is that Americans are not studying in highly technical fields ie Science, Engineering, Technology and Mathematics. It is a fact of life, I quote from a congressional report : http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/97-746.pdf "Enrollment of U.S. citizens in graduate science and engineering programs has not kept pace with that of foreign students in those programs. In addition to the number of foreign students in graduate science and engineering programs, a significant number of university faculty in the "[National Science Foundation] NSF data reveal that in 2003, the foreign student population earned Wonderful suggestions out here, kick out all H1-Bs! Every action has a reaction. Who will teach college students when H1-B professors leave ? How about Doctors and Nurses when there is a shortage across this country ? What about all the knowledge invested in these individuals. Which Americans will take up the hi-tech jobs when the hi-tech workers leave when there are no matching numbers of American graduates that come even close. Do not think for one minute that H1-B holders have limited options or no where, Canada, Australia, Germany, the UK, New Zealand all have immigration programs that accept high skilled individuals from other country's based on merit and skills and award them permanent residency. They couldn't be happier, America's loss would be their windfall. And the writing is already on the wall (as shown by the dismal performance below). Kick out the US educated or trained talent and make America greater, its hard to understand the warped logic : "Duke wasn't the only U.S. school to be skunked at the prestigious computing contest. Of the home teams, only Massachusetts Institute of Technology ranked among the 12 highest finishers. Most top spots were seized by teams from Eastern Europe and Asia. Until the late 1990s, U.S. teams dominated these contests. But the tide has turned. Last year not one was in the top dozen." http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_18/b3982053.htm?campaign_id=bier_tca What if H1-Bs were abolished and high skilled individuals could not come to this country, what if foreign students could no longer come to the US on their own accord due to what can only be termed to be an extreme case of xenophobia ? There would be no Yahoo (Jerry Yang - Taiwan), Intel (Andy Grove - Hungary), Google (Sergey Brin - Russia), Vinod Khosla (Sun Microsystems - India), Ebay (Pierre Omidyar _ France), Webex (Subrah Iyar - India), Cirrus Logic (Suhas Patil - India), Sanjiv Sidhu (I2 Technologies - India), Nvidia (Jen-Hsun Huang - Taiwan) just to name a handful of many, and this in only the Tech industry. So next time you go attacking high skilled individuals consider not using Google or Yahoo. Ignorance is not a good thing to possess especially when one purports to speak about a process they know little of, employers of H1-B workers have to demonstrate to the Department of Labor that there is no American qualified to get a particular job, the job opening has to be publicly advertised and also at the job site. Thirdly by law the employer has to attest to paying the prevailing wage for that particular job. Claims that H1-Bs take low paying jobs is utter hog wash and an attempt to distort the truth, sharpen your skills and knowledge and your pay will be commensurate. Are anti-H1-B forces making tons of noise because they don't have the skills to match or unwilling to make the effort to match what industry needs. Jobs do not come on a silver platter, if you're good you'll always have a job and the pay commensurate to what you're capable of. Its unfortunate to see America engulfed in a state of xenophobia as reflected by some of the comments posted here, ironic when many of those who habor such feelings came to this country as immigrants through their foreign predecessors no more than 4 generations ago. Posted by: Mike on April 27, 2006 01:47 PM The Indians and Chinese have already overcrowded their own country. Now they want to come here and overcrowd ours. Brilliant. Specter's immigration bill calles for nearly doubling the number of "temporary" workers here on H1-Bs. It also calls for a mass amnesty for illegal aliens and does absolutely nothing to actually improve enforcement. The McCain-Kennedy bill, the Hagel-Martinez "compromise", and even Frist's so-called "enforcement" bill propose pretty much the same thing. Don't you people get it? Congress is trying to send the American people a message: don't you dare question our opinions on immigration, or we'll INCREASE the number of immigrants. They're telling us to "go to hell." That happens everytime there is immigration "reform." Our only option is to make our voices HEARD. Call. Donate. Volunteer. Spread the word among your friends, co-workers and neighbors. This isn't a sprint, folks, it's a marathon. Posted by: Craig on April 27, 2006 02:09 PM The only way to make your voice heard is to Ignornace and extremism will just produce the very opposite effect. Without James Sensenbrener's punitive provision. Congress could have already passed a border control bill without considering an AMNESTY to nearly 13 million people. Thanks to Sensenbrener illegal immigrants could now find their voices heard. Posted by: fairisunfair on April 27, 2006 04:27 PM Mike, the immigrants you mentioned have made contributions, but that does not mean we depend on immigrants for entrepreneurship. Small business loans to Indian nationals in order to buy fuel stations and convenience stores and the Silicon Valley VC networks are two examples of why Americans, who are loaded with school debt and often cannot even find jobs, don't always end up as owners of capital. As a matter of fact, I own a business, but there's no such thing as picking up the phone and getting help. The networks are political. Actually, I'm succeeding, anyway, but it's far tougher to be native-born and succeed when people think "immigrant" equals "better." Look at American business history befors you draw that erroneous conclusion. Posted by: FCannon on April 27, 2006 04:53 PM "Ignorance is not a good thing to possess especially when one purports to speak about a process they know little of," I'll shed some more light on this view that immigration reform and investing in Americans is ignorant. The tech firms mentioned above are all outgrowths of one of the largest misallocations of capital in human history (perhaps next to the US housing bubble). The game worked like this: a handful of venture capitalists and investment bankers teamed up with professors at Stanford Business School (and Silicon Valley in general) to siphon billions of dollars of capital into the hands of hand-picked recipients, many immigrants, and then pumped up the stock prices of these companies (some real businesses, others not) with cheap money from the Fed. Meanwhile, many areas of industry, such as power plants, were neglected. So, while these immigrants mentioned did contibute to the so-called New Economy, they also presided over gross misallocation of capital that made their contributions seem far than greater than the reality, and set the country back in terms of areas where we needed to invest. This was not necessarily the fault of the immigrants mentioned above, but it does suggest that glorifying the necessity of immigration, when in fact we had a giant investment bubble fomented by crony capitalists with the right connections, is hardly a platform on which to call immigration reformers ignorant. Posted by: FCannon on April 27, 2006 05:10 PM so much fdor being for "leagl immigartion," but against "illegal immigration." Posted by: dreamact2005 on April 27, 2006 06:05 PM FCannon, Good points and I agree with some, but not all. Sure, the H1-B program has its flaws, problems and issues which could be corrected. Anyone who has heard of the term "body shop" will understand that some unscrupulous employers have abused and trampled what was a well intended program. This will happen in any system, there will be a few bad apples but not that many to make the whole basket bad. Reforming laws to limit the % number of employees a company can have on H1-B is one sure way to tackle this problem and accommodate Americans in a fair and equitable way. Secondly greater Federal oversight with required reporting would help ensure that employers are not abusing the system. On site DOL inspections could be another starting point to ensure that H1-B employees are not benched or being exploited or being used to replace American employees. I'm sure there are many better suggestions which would improve and reform the system. However I disagree with those who call for the total abolition of the program when it benefits America in ways that far outweigh the negatives. America could turn things around. Why not give American citizens tax breaks and grants for enrolling in high skilled education ? Give the colleges grants based on the number of Americans enrolled in fields in Science, Technology, Mathematics and Engineering. Americans are just as capable as immigrants but most steer away from this "difficult" fields perhaps due to the stereotypical association that these fields require too much academic work while foreign nationals beat them to the finish. My remarks on ignorance are misplaced and I do humbly withdraw them as with every coin there is a 2nd side to it. Many Americans benefited too from the "SV conspiracy" and the immigrants were not alone in it and comprised a small minority in SV. There are bigger problems in immigration, skilled immigrants are a very small fraction of that equation that don't deserve to become the scapegoat of frustrations that could be vented towards making America better. There are bigger problems with illegal immigrants, persons who entered the US without inspection and are undocumented. They should be the target of reform, targetting high skilled and legal immigrants who abide by the law and have not broken it, attacking these good individuals is misplacing energies which would otherwise fix a problem that is afflicting America in many ways. Target the undocumented for major reform, fight employers who abuse the H1-B program (not those who use it as it was intended), there are well meaning H1-B employees who have paid more than their fair share to society, first as students and then as workers stuck in a bureaucratic maze that is causing good talent to leave this country for competing destinations (good talent will indeed last the entire 6 yr H1-B period - whats the point of loosing it ?). As immigration reformists battle H1-B's there are far greater numbers of Canadians who are able to come into the country and work on TN visas, and so are Australians now under a new work infinitely renewable visa program, yet no one battles these visas even though some of the jobs taken are the very same ones H1-Bs would ordinarily do. Posted by: Mike on April 27, 2006 06:33 PM Mmm...nice thoughts. I do agree that these H1-b visas should be limited per year and it is fine where it stands currently (65K). But, all those acerbic thoughts on legal immigration are totally un-warranted. Legal immigration was how this country was originally made. Everyone knows that. Most probably, all the 'Americans' that are protesting right now are either second or third generation Americans whose parents/grand-parents immigrated here. Then it was 'just come in a boat, pass your medical test, and you are in'. Now, it is a little more sophisticated. Bring in people who are the most sought after and let them apply for their Perm. residency. Mind you, it takes 6-8 years these days to obtain Perm residency. Still we do want to go through these legal process, earn the right to live here and enjoy the fruits of our hard-work, live better lives here. So whats wrong in that? Dont tell me that we are stealing your jobs. Its the skill set that counts. No matter how many people rant about us stealing the jobs, the fact of the matter is still that people are not getting the jobs because they are not able to compete. Sorry, but thats true. Even now, i see many many jobs in Software/Hardware - people are very difficult to find. We have been trying to recruit for forever now, without luck - advertising in all major websites, newspapers you name it. And do u think that we see if an Indian, Chinese or a true-blue American is applying before interviewing them?? No, just the skill-set. If you get any other impression, its totally false. Its just that people like us who are coming here go all out to compete and try to get a job. They dont have this devil-may-care attitude about the job coming to them..I can quote you one example, where an "American" scheduled to interview didnt even turn up!! Imagine with this attitude, how far would that person might go..I am not saying that every 'American' is like that, but it is typical. Having said all these, I dont have any bad feelings towards any of you guys that protest legal immigration and our efforts to lobby the congress. We will continue doing what we can, we wont be bogged down by you or anyone else. So, please dont waste time protesting us, protest those illegals that are a threat to the society. Thanks. Posted by: lega_immig on April 27, 2006 10:11 PM I love all these people who claim that if we don't allow more H1-B's in we'll keep losing tech ssector jobs to India. It was the all the Indian H1-B's in America who used their networks and connections to move the tech work overseas to begin with. If we hadn't had H1-B's in the first place India wouldn't have gotten a foothold in the market. What we are doing with the H1-B program is giving away trade secrets to people with ZERO loyalty to this country. One of these days, when some historian writes "The Rise and Fall of the American Republic," the H1-B program is going to have a whole chapter to itself (while our insane immigration policies, multiculturalist nonsense, and judicial tyrants will each get whole volumes). Posted by: Craig on April 27, 2006 11:40 PM I would like to point out that instead of our goverment increased the amount of people to come under the H-1B visa should decrease the amount of people , and start to invest in our own Americans people childrens to provided them a better future.. I can't believe that our nations will disappear little by little as is , for allowing our represantives to sell it of to the higher bidder. It is not only trying to force us the amnesty deals for the illegals , out sourcing our jobs to foregning government giving every information of our citizens to them to rob us in the future when they get displease with our nation, now they want to increase the numbers of H-1B from china,and india that they already have Americans jobs in their land .. American Governmetn it is going the wrong way to compete with the world, you can not destroy the American way to be able to competed ..We don't need to loose our way , instead , we should make the world to try to compete with us by improving their government and economy to be able to compete with us...Let get our pride back and jobs home ... to be able show the world that , what is made in the U.S.A. well made and that every product made is quality , begining with our workers.America has always been the pioneer and leader in industrial , technical and etc world .. never a follower .....AMERICANS JOBS AND EDUCATIONS FOR AMERICANS CITIZENS FIRST....... Posted by: AMERICANS CITIZENS FIRST on April 28, 2006 01:33 AM Dear Mike, I am not sure if you are American or an Immigrant but that is an excellent analysis of what H1B's (Immigrants) can contribute to the US economy and I am proud of them. But I also am sorry to say that the H1B program is misused by SOME (NOTE: SOME) contracting companies. I think US citizens are unhappy with these companies and people. The most practical thing to do is to urge lawmakers to black list companies which abuse the program. The most impractical thing is getting rid of all the legal immigrants. Again, please dont tell me I am not supposed to advise you. I was just thinking from your point of view what was the main issue here. Thanks. Posted by: Someone on April 28, 2006 09:05 AM Mike, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Actually, I agree with you that having a door open for appropriate numbers of H1-B workers and highly-skilled immigrants is healthy and in the national interest. Sometimes FAIR and immigration reform is equated with shutting down our borders altogether, but that is not the case. FAIR's publicly-stated position is to reduce the number of legal immigrants and stop illegal immigration, but we're not about eliminating immigration altogether. With a population of 280 million, we really need to consider the quality of life and carrying capacity of our country. If mass immigration were to continue, we'd see problems escalate in areas such as pollution, congestion, fiscal crisis, and education. The gap between rich and poor would substantially widen, and the middle class would shrink dramatically. This would hurt everyone, even the immigrants themselves, so this is not the right path for addressing the problems of third world poverty. As for the situations within countries such as India, China and Mexico, they need more family planning, and unloading excess population and poverty on the United States is not the way to solve this problem. On this blog, I've been advocating a good neighbor policy for Mexico, and have mentioned alternative ways to help the third world besides simply bringing everyone here, e.g., debt relief, family planning, technology transfer, education, world pressure to end corruption, and other ways. In graduate school, I had brilliant classmates from Nigeria and Swaziland. Both were engineers and neither wanted to immigrate to the US. They earned educations here and then returned to their wealthy families and interests at home, but they also took with them tools they needed to help their home countries. We had only one Mexican (and no Central Americans) in my graduate program, however...the students from Latin America were otherwise from Peru, Argentina and Brazil. Why is that? And why should America feel that Indian and Chinese nationals who study here must automatically immigrate here? This is not fair for the people who are left behind in the home countries, and as we see in the case of the PRC, nationals who study in the USA and then return home can be powerful agents for modernization. I'd like to see the leadership in Washington get sensible and creative on this immigration issue. We need a major modernization and overhaul in our trade, immigration and foreign policies, and as I'm sure you'd agree, Mike, these issues are intertwined. Most disturbing to me is this: the current policy of merging countries into one, global, corporate, monocultural village requires overlooking all the people who become redudant with the merger. Where would that stop? We have redundancy around the globe. There are 191 Member States in the United Nations, and this creates all kinds of job overlaps. How many plumbers are there? How many programmers? How many chefs? Why, just think if we pooled all these people (and countries) into one, giant labor market, think how much money the world would save by eliminating this redundancy. The world would be more efficient. At the nth degree, this would result in the elimination of 190 countries and their redundant citizens, but that would have a huge payoff in terms of corporate profits and efficiency. This is not fantasy, either, because already in the United States, African-Americans are slowly passing from the scene, unable to raise families and have children when the good, middle class jobs are taken away by mass immigration. Accepting that there are a certain number of people and cultures and nations in the world, and then thinking about the best way to create prosperity and peace, is not the foundation or underlying assumption of the advocates of a world without borders. A world without borders takes a utopian vision and then does what it needs to do in order to get there, no matter what the consequences are for people along the way. Like all utopian visions, including communism, the end-goals themselves sound great at first glance, but the force and control employed to get to the utopian dream leads to human misery, and the utopia itself remains ever-elusive. Posted by: FCannon on April 28, 2006 11:11 AM "Legal immigration was how this country was originally made. Everyone knows that." lega-immig, I'm going to disagree with your assertions, which you claim are beyond debate. Let's look at a few examples of Americans who did not immigrate to the United States: 1) Anyone born here after the American Republic was founded. Moreover, looking at the history of American business, the country was not simply built by immigrants, as you assert. Thomas Edison was not an immigrant. Alexander Graham Bell was not an immigrant. Sam Walton was not an immigrant. Estee Lauder was not an immigrant (she was born in Queens). In each of these cases, entrepreneurs started from their proverbial basements and build something from the ground up. Estee Lauder walked into department stores and sold her products. She did it the hard way. Sam Walton was mocked when he had mini-circuses outside his stores, but eventually got it together and built a company that, before the culture was changed by his children, was admired and loved. Yes, immigrants have provided labor, and their children have started companies, and more recently, we've had immigrants walk right into tech euphoria. But your assertion that Americans are lazy or stupid (e.g., don't show up for job interviews) is naive and outrageous, and you are only showing that immigrants are capable of coming here with anti-American prejudices. Posted by: FCannon on April 28, 2006 12:08 PM Mike, you bring up some valid points about H1B visas and the requirements. Others tout education and changing careers, etc. The H1B requirements can be circumvented just like the SBA 8(a) set aside program. Believe me, I helped write the SOWs. Write the requirements so narrow that Einstein couldn't fill the position for a salary which the company attests is prevailing wage. Attesting means nothing. Similar to a company attesting they are following the law and do not intentionally hire illegal aliens although they used the same social security number on 2850 applications. Why can't the DOL release the H1B positions to the public if they are so hard to fill? Let potential candidates apply for these positions before going half way around the world. If a company really wants cheap H1B labor they will find some phony reason a U.S. candidate is not qualified so they can attest they company has done all they can to comply. As for education opportunities for American citizens? The Univ. of Tenn. recently announced a major recruiting and scholarship effort to attract more students especially in the tech fields. The target group? Foreign students of hispanic origin(legal or illegal). While Bill Frist stood on a soapbox touting his $3B education program for engineering students up to $26k per year. Though only the poor need apply and to hell with the middle class providing the tax dollars to fund the program. While international students may be ineligible for federal grants in aid, they can compete for scholarships, state and university programs. Could it be that US students are steering away from the tech industry because they see the offshoring/outsourcing of that industry while the monthly job reports from DOL list service/retail and healthcare as the highest growing segment month to month? This is similar to the teaching profession a few years ago. Students gravitated towards the money and opportunity in the tech industry. Now there's a shortage of teachers and guess where that shortage is being filled? Overseas. One last thing. This harping about land of immigrants is BS. Over 80% of U.S. citizens today were born here. Study the immigration laws over the last 50 years, especially 1965 and 1986 and you will find the gates have been removed compared to a century ago and the expectation today is that anyone in the world has a right to come to the U.S. Dont' believe it? Read the propoganda being spoken by all of the pro-criminal alien activists. Posted by: Rick Forman on April 28, 2006 12:25 PM A technical point, for all those claiming this is a "nation of immigrants." My ancestors, overwhelmingly, were not immigrants. A small percentage of them were Native American. They came across the Bering Strait from Asia before there ever were any countries. That's called migration. Nearly all of the rest came from the UK before the Revolution. When they came here, they left one part of the UK (Scotland, England) for another (Massachusetts, Virginia, etc.). Such people weren't immigrants. The land they came to belonged to their nation. They were migrants and settlers, but not immigrants. Get it right. Here's another story that should help you visualize the immigration problem: When I was a teenager, I used to be able to eat a whole fixing of my mom's scalloped potatoes. The whole casserole dish. The next morning I would wake up 2 inches taller. I can still eat that much today, except instead of waking up 2 inches taller I'm 2 inches wider. Immigration served us well when we were an expanding nation, but we stopped expanding over a century ago. Oue cities are crowded and getting worse. Look at LA or San Francisco or New York or Chicago or Washington, D.C. Every city - EVERY CITY - is becoming that way. It's time to say "enough is enough." Posted by: Craig on April 28, 2006 03:34 PM Craig, I'm trying to understand what the issue is, are your concerns directed at one community/country ? H1-B's come from all countries and not just one. I'm trying to discern whether you are trying to advocate limiting the H1-B program to specific country limits. It is pointless for us to cry over spilt milk, we can't remove current H1-Bs but we can change the system to better match what is realistic going into the future. The truth is that H1-B or no H1-B globalization and outsourcing will take place. This seems to be your concern, as I speak outsourcing is also moving to new continents amongst them Africa and South America -- I don't see a H1-B connection there. Reforming the tax system to heavily 'penalize' corporations that outsource is one way to start. If the reform movement feels so strongly about the H1-B program as an inlet into this country then the system can be reformed, hive off the H1-B into two separate programs, cater for students who study and excel here in high skilled fields and lower the quota and impose stricter requirements for new workers who do not have an American education. I will however note that the number of international students coming to America is down, students are opting to go to other countries that appreciate their talent and knowledge, countries such as Australia and the UK. H1-B workers are also leaving the US, I know of some who have left to go to greener pastures or return to government incentives in their home countries (eg Taiwan and China). I know of a co-worker from the UK, who went back due to " US immigration uncertainity", it was easier for him to go back to the UK where he could work anywhere in the EU without bureaucratic hurdles and uncertainity. It takes years to go through the Green Card employment based process anywhere from an average minimum of 4 yrs to 10 yrs +. America is no longer attractive as it once was to would be newcomers or long timers who face the predicament of an ardous and flawed immigration process. The US government is unwilling to make changes to stop outsourcing as reflected by comments made by none other than Mr. President (I strolled through 3 floors of Macy's in NYC and it was hard for me to find any item marked "Made in USA" instead all I could find was "Made in China" -- clothing or shoes for instance again has nothing to do with H1-Bs or immigration). If there were heavy penalities for outsourcing that would break the link between SOME H1-Bs and outsourcing, again not all H1-Bs are from the countries some have a beef against. Mr President : http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,109189,00.html "People do lose jobs as a result of globalization, and it is painful for those who lose jobs, but protectionism would not be the right way for the U.S. government to respond, he said. " Delink the H1-B program from outsourcing by penalizing outsourcing and I think that would be a start to resolve some of the problems. The H1-B program has helped America, H1-B fees paid have helped boost the relatively reduced numbers of Americans studying technology, engineering otherwise the numbers would even be lower. Is this a bad thing ? I don't think so. Here is a snap shot : - Science programs for 75,000 middle and high school students # Someone, Your comments are welcome whether negative or positive worst case we can always agree to disagree. I do agree with you that companies should be blacklisted if they abuse the H1-B program and should be effectively barred from using the H1-B program. # FCannon, Thank you for your reply and I must say very insightful comments. You are correct in very many aspects. I think the message as propagated by some immigration reformists doesn't allow the message to get out that organizations such as FAIR are for good reform and not the total abolition of immigration. A case of the bad apple that spoils the rest. Flat out attacking all immigrants is sometimes the modus operandi of some of these other organizations, what they don't realize is at the end of the day they discredit themselves and even those organizations that are for for realistic immigration reform. An example is the organization that recently supplied Senator Sessions with graphs which said a green card holder will bring in 80 family members from outside the country! and then extrapolated that to simulate ridiculous numbers, such arguments are easily shot down through scientific and economic studies (as was the case this week during this week's Judiciary committee hearings) and the end result is that because of one bad organization, other organizations with well intended goals loose credibility or are left doing the equivalent of banging their heads against the wall when it comes to policy making. The conglomeration of the factors you refer to is what could be summed up as Globalization, something that Mr. President is not keen to stop by going after outsourcing. Excessive outsourcing is a bad thing but those capable of doing something about it are not willing to. Why ? I can only guess powerful "special interests" encouraged by high profit margins have something to do with it. Mass immigration is a bad thing especially when its uncontrolled and illegal. I think the Senate took a bold step towards resolving this issue when they voted this week for funding border security. Future immigration can be controlled, thats a practical and reasonable solution, to do that border controls and an effective immigration system need to be in place first. The issue of the illegal immigrants itself is another issue, its not practical or affordable to remove 12 million + people, America needs to think of solutions that will encourage them leave and not to remain in the shadows from which they will never emerge. Brain drain is a serious problem and it unfortunately affects many developing countries (I presume one of the intents of an H1-B cap is to prevent excessive brain drain). Doctors and Nurses are being poached from these countries at the expense of their citizens and brought to the US. Immigration is not a right but a priviledge and that should never be forgotten. The Indians and Chinese you refer to who have studied in the US could very well return to their countries, but is that in America's best interest ? Keeping them here on the basis of their American education is selfish to the interests of their countries, the sword cuts both ways. America can help solve the world's problems in many ways but thats another sword in itself, American investment uplifts standards of living and creates jobs and wealth creation but in the process, outsourcing begins to take place. The students could return to their countries and more than likely American companies will follow them as they have the high skilled education and with a lower standard of living corporations would rejoice paying them less than they would have if they were on H1-B visas. There is no easy solution but America even as a leader could borrow a cue from other countries and see how the UK, Canada and Australia have handled immigration without adversely affecting the standards of living in their countries. Just last week a Professor invited before the Senate Judiciary Committee suggested that the H1-B program should be abolished and America should adopt a skill based point system like that in Canada and Australia. Would this be a bad thing ? Its hard to tell. I don't think there is an easy or perfect solution to all these problems as every solution appears to create new problems. Mass immigration I presume in relation to your statement that jobs are taken away I presume refers to the lower skilled jobs in regards to minorities. However I would like to point out that this is more than likely due to illegal low skilled mass immigration and solutions to stop this are in the works. They may not be perfect but they will help begin to solve this issue. Globalization is inevitable, but can we really stop it ? # Rick, I totally agree, attestation is indeed a good faith effort just as your state will give you a driver's licence and expect you not to drink and drive. In the case of the latter we know the penalities, they discourage drunken driving, in the former there is a lack of greater enforcement, if this were done more alongside reforms, some of the H1-B flaws would be reduced. I'm rather puzzled as to how the DOL hoards these positions. The positions are first advertised and a notice has to be posted in the work place stating the amount of pay and the position the H1-B employee will hold. Are you suggesting a national posting of the same positions ? Its likely local candidates will still end up with the position as the end of the day. As it is I often look through dice.com and monster.com and there are many jobs open but often in hard to find skills. International students indeed can compete for scholarships, but if they turn out to be the best of the best shall we then banish them from America for being talented ? As it is very few international students get scholarships as some private scholarships are again off limits from non citizens or permanent residents. The H1-B program has done a good part in providing scholarships to American students even with its flaws. However more needs to be done and I strongly believe that Americans in the middle class should not be left out. Harvard recently started a scholarship program for talented students who cannot afford to attend the college and I hope that more colleges of the same calibre will follow suit. How about a system like Canada's ? Its worth considering as education is power. My comments above on outsourcing and globalization are that it is a complex problem with no easy solution. I still believe that certain specialities such as Bio-Informatics, Engineering, CFD etc still offer good salaries but they are not easy fields. Some incentives could be created to encourage students to take them up. A good example would be waiving student loans for students who excel in these fields. Just a random thought on that last one. On your last paragraph, I can only emphasis again that immigration is not a right but a priviledge. Speeding is a misdeameanor, just as entering the US while undocumented is (HR4437 proposes otherwise), while a criminal is a felon aka murderers, rapists. This is what has infuriated the pro-undocumented movement, calling them criminals, they are hard workers, (as with every group there are a few bad apples every now and then), others ie Americans are only there to offer humanitarian assistance but does this equate them to the same class as murderers and rapists. Sure they are illegal aliens but I think the reformists took a wrong turn on this one when they started calling them felons aka criminals. Had this not happened there might not have been the rallies that took place and HR4437 would have passed quietly in the Senate without much fan fare. Sure they broke the law, give them the equitable punishment but not the unjust punishment of making them a felon. Deportation would be one punishment but thats not feasible or affordable with 12 million people, realistic reform has to keep that in mind. Again what happens to the 12 million is not their right but America must be realistic in how it solves that problem. See the determination of the young man from Honduras and one is almost convinced that he will certainly be back again (thats why the border security measure was timely) : http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2006/04/21/sanchez.illegals.journey.cnn # Craig, I do not know if you are the first Craig on this forum because the ideologies you now present are why anti-immigrationists have no chance of ever attaining any reforms. I strongly suggest that you consider taking a thorough look at America's history and even go as far as spending a day on Ellis Island in New York for some self education. Perhaps you might even want to take the $100 National Geographic test http://www.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/ which would prove if your ancestors were not immigrants. Be warned though, the results might be hard for you to accept. And your technicality is flat wrong and only reveals your deep aversion for immigrants, so much so that you cannot stomach the word or even bear to fanthom the thought that you might and most probably are the descendant of an immigrant. According to Merriam Webster : Migrant : Immigrant : Please get your facts right. You're ruining the good cause for all who want to reform the immigration system to better match America's needs in the 21st Century. Whether you like it or not, America is what is it today thanks to immigration. You can't change history but you're free to stop using anything that immigrants ever contributed to if you dislike them that much. Ronald Reagan once said, “You can go to France to live but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Japan but you cannot become a German or a Japanese. But the one place in the world where anyone from any corner of the world can come is America. Come to live and become an American." John F. Kennedy also wrote a book "A Nation of Immigrants". Please don't insult the memory of these two great Americans. Posted by: Mike on April 28, 2006 07:42 PM FCannon, We dont come here holding any prejudices against anyone. I quoted just one example of the apathy of some people and their overall attitude towards competetion. If anything, when i came here for my Master's, I had heard that American people were really welcoming and well-mannered towards immigrants. Well, that is true for the most part and as always there are some sour-grapes on both sides that spoil this good will, and unfortunately those are the people that are most vocal. I never claim that without us, there is no high-tech industry in America. But i do want to make this strong argument that almost everyone is an immigrant. I was reading how someone above was classifying some people as not immigrants based on when they came here or how they came here. Thats just ludicrous! If you not a native American, you are an immigrant. No matter how you want yourselves to be classifed. It seems that all these people are saying is that "I have come here and i am shutting the door behind me, you cant enter, this land is mine". I dont subscribe to that view and neither does our strong half a million high-tech legal group of immigrants (tring to be). And yes, finally, i do know how to spell legal immigrant :-) I definitely dont need to learn anything from these venom spitting anti-(legal) immigration groups!! Good luck to you all and good luck to us. Take care guys! Posted by: lega_immig on April 30, 2006 02:37 PM Mike, Immigration made EVERY country except South Africa where human beings evolved. Most of these countries' histories is that of repeated conquest as waves people took over where others had already been. The United States is no exception. However, not everyone thinks this is a good idea. That is to say, I don't want my country to be conqured. Just because we allow SOME people to emmigrate here does NOT mean we can accomodate everyone who wants to come. You speak of "America's needs in the 21st century". Could you explain who should determine that if not the majority of American citizens? Can you explain the future of our way of life if we are outnumbered by third world illegal aliens who disregard any law they don't like and are looking for free health care? Thanks for any reply. Posted by: Bill Dexter on May 1, 2006 12:01 PM Bill, My points about "America's needs in the 21st Century" are in regards to LEGAL highly skilled immigrants who abide by all laws and procedures while making a positive net contribution to America's economy. I have stated severally on this blog my views about both LEGAL and illegal immigration and I believe we are on the same page in regards to how the pressing issue of illegal immigration should be handled. Massive and uncontrolled illegal immigration which I do not support is certainly not a good thing for America's future. Please note that I also do not endorse opening the flood gates when it comes to legal immigration as that would defeat the purpose of controlled and sensible immigration policy. Mike Posted by: Mike on May 2, 2006 11:21 PM |
of Immigration Voice hail from India, though Chinese membership numbers in the hundreds and is on the rise. Most arrived on an international student visa or a visa known as the H-1B, reserved for highly skilled workers who can stay for up to six years -- unless an employer sponsors their green cards, which grant immigrants permanent residence in the United States and the right to live and work here freely. Over the past decade, the largest numbers of H-1Bs have been awarded to high-technology workers from India and China," the paper says of the group. "Immigration Voices also enlisted the help of Rick Swartz, who has his own firm and has long been a leading lobbyist for [open-borders] immigration groups. Swartz gathered members of the group at his home one January weekend for a crash course in American politics, teaching them to position themselves as the 'new Cubans for the Republicans.'"